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The Mad Titan
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Who do you have in the Machida-Shogun rematch? Normally in MMA, rematches are pretty obvious: the first fight was a fluke, or by the time the second fight happens, one guy has really improved and is obviously better than the other one. I don't think either of those situations describe this fight. I had the first for Shogun, and favor him again here. You?
-- Jason from Tempe

Jordan Breen, FightFinder Czar: First, let me say that I think you articulate the fundamental failure with most MMA rematches. In the idiom of boxing, most immediate rematches tend to happen because a fight was fantastic, and promoters want to squeeze it for every cent. In MMA, rematches tend to either happen because someone tipped over the apple cart and promoter wants to correct it (St. Pierre-Serra 2, or now Penn-Edgar 2) or because the obvious direction for a fighter is unclear and their fight history makes it palatable (Liddell-Ortiz 3 before it fell apart, and the general public being hip to Nogueira-Cro Cop 2). This is neither of those. This was simply two elite, well-matched fighters whose controversial and entertaining first bout necessitated a rematch, which is infinitely more interesting.

Partly for this reason, I find it hard to size up. On top of that, I don't know that Rua can fight any better than he did in the first fight. The gameplan crafted by he and Andre Amado -- to limit Lyoto's counter opportunities by not using his hands, focusing instead on kicks, and capitalizing on Machida slowing down -- was a master stroke of strategy. However, if Rua goes out, and does the exact same thing, will it be as successful? It's difficult to say.

Furthermore, we've yet to see Machida go back to the drawing board. Since Machida really perfected his style around, say 2007, he hasn't had to fight in any different way. Everything he has done has worked and led him to success. If Shogun tries to limit good countering opportunities, stalls Lyoto out, and kicks his legs, can he show us a new look -- whether it means being more aggressive with his hands or otherwise -- that will make him look more effective in the second fight? Again, we've got no precedent with Machida to forecast that.

At this point, I am most interested -- and frankly, wishing -- in whether we get to see the ground game. I think with underrated clinch takedowns, and great punches and elbows on top, Machida could really do damage and tire Shogun out instead of fighting a more measured pace on the feet which doesn't exploit Rua's historically iffy cardio. At the same time, though everyone loves him for his striking, Shogun's best asset is what a slick sweep-and-submit threat he is on the ground. I think a ground battle offers both guys interesting chances for offense, and would be able to produce more direct action than we saw out of the first fight.

For what it's worth, I had the first fight a 48-47 Rua win on my first watch, and a 48-48 draw on multiple rewatches, with a 10-10 second round. I do favor Machida slightly, because of the fact that Shogun perhaps has little way to change his attack in the second bout. However, it's my favorite rematch I can recall in quite some time, and we can only hope that future rematches in MMA adhere to such a standard.
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what? shogun has showed bad cardio in two fights and all of a sudden he has "historically iffy cardio" while machida has shown average cardio in most of his fights including the first fight between these two and shogun is supposed to have suspect cardio WTF?. but other than that there is some interesting points.
 

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Machida could really do damage and tire Shogun out instead of fighting a more measured pace on the feet which doesn't exploit Rua's historically iffy cardio.
before i read anything, i seen what was in bold and it totally made this post not even worth reading. out of 22 professional fights, i can only count 2 times shogun gassed and there were reasons for that. other than that shogun always has had tremendous cardio. his fight against chuck, he (shogun) looked light on his fight. his 1st fight against machida, well we all know how far that went.

shogun's cardio is back nuff said.
 

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The Mad Titan
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
before i read anything, i seen what was in bold and it totally made this post not even worth reading. out of 22 professional fights, i can only count 2 times shogun gassed and there were reasons for that. other than that shogun always has had tremendous cardio. his fight against chuck, he (shogun) looked light on his fight. his 1st fight against machida, well we all know how far that went.

shogun's cardio is back nuff said.
and not to mention their talking about machida GnP shogun to where him down when machida has pretty weak GnP and shogun has never been on his back long
 

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"Focus"
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I got about halfway through what Jordan Breen said and gave up. I can't stand that guy, he's such an elitist and no matter how wrong he is he always talks down to people. I don't know why people listen to him. He likes to throw a couple three syllable words into his show so people think he's smart, it's so annoying. He thinks he's the only one that knows a damn thing about MMA, yet as far as I know all he does is cover the sport. I don't believe he is ranked in BJJ or taken a Muay Thai, kick boxing class or any kind of Martial arts class. He's just an obnoxious "news reporter" that thinks he's got it all figured out, go work for TMZ you P.O.S.....

Basically, I think the guy is tool, sorry I just went a little Anderson Silva v Forrest Griffin for a second.....and I wonder why I got banned from Sherdog, haha.
 

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before i read anything, i seen what was in bold and it totally made this post not even worth reading. out of 22 professional fights, i can only count 2 times shogun gassed and there were reasons for that. other than that shogun always has had tremendous cardio. his fight against chuck, he (shogun) looked light on his fight. his 1st fight against machida, well we all know how far that went.

shogun's cardio is back nuff said.
So true.
 

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"Focus"
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Didn't Shogun have some kind of crazy low resting heartbeat coming into the Machida fight? I thought it was like 44 or 48, that's like Olympic swimmer/ marathon runner/ Tri athlete low. That's insane shape for a fighter.....
 

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I actually agree on the article on many points. I'm banking on Machida in the rematch because I can't see Shogun changing ANYTHING in his style. Last time his fighting took Lyoto to the wire and possibly beat him, but now Machida knows that gameplan and, I believe, has a much more competent style in terms of adapting to it. I believe Lyoto CAN and WILL be the aggressor in the rematch as well. He's shown he can be aggressive when it's needed against both Rashad (who has faster hands and just as much power as Shogun) and Thiago (who has more power than both of them). Shogun has gone on record saying something to the effect of he isn't/can't change his fighting style now and that really, really worries me. Like the article says, I can't see Shogun fighting any better than he did in their last fight but I can Machida fighting much, much better than that now that his hand is repaired and he knows Shogun.
 

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I'm sure the red dots are coming but I like breen a lot. I haven't heard any other mma talk radio hosts that know more than him. I definitely understand if some of you find his tone arrogant and elitest, but man, the guy knows so much about mma. I can't say I agree 100% with what he says, but he's normally spot on.

For his article, he brought a few insight, however, i agree, he doesn't really have a stance. But I'm not sure how you can break this fight down without staying on the fence. Shogun def won the first fight, but it was a close fight. Machida didn't seem like himself and that was the best shogun we've seen. Was that an off night by machida or was it the result of shogun's tactics that threw him off? What can Machida do to counter this style? Will Shogun do the same tactics or show off some new skills? Who would win the ground game? I'm not sure anyone can give us definitive answers to all of these questions. That's why I'm going to not put on my prediction cap on and just wait for this epic fight.
 
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Shogun was known for a Wandy type ruthless aggression for a long, long time.

ppl even thought he might come out that way vs Machida... but he totally changed and adapted to teh situation.

why do ppl think he cant adapt again??

i think more pressure is on Machida to adapt and we havent seen him have to change his style, ever.
 

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Shogun was known for a Wandy type ruthless aggression for a long, long time.

ppl even thought he might come out that way vs Machida... but he totally changed and adapted to teh situation.

why do ppl think he cant adapt again??

i think more pressure is on Machida to adapt and we havent seen him have to change his style, ever.
So true, man. I mean It wouldnt surprise me much if he just went wandy style on machida. He has the skills.

Machida will be thinking about his leg kicks too much.


Too bad he cant use stomps and soccer kicks :D
 

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Machida will win and make it 2 - 0 by either a unanimous descison or a 4th round tko
 

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So true, man. I mean It wouldnt surprise me much if he just went wandy style on machida. He has the skills.

Machida will be thinking about his leg kicks too much.


Too bad he cant use stomps and soccer kicks :D
Shogun needs to take Machida's legs for three rounds then blitz him. Lyoto is too fast to just rush him right out of the gate, though I don't think Machida has the power to finish Shogun. I don't know what Machida's chin is like either, he's never really been hit, the only time he was ever really damaged was against Shogun and he looked defeated at the end of that fight. It will be interesting to see how well Lyoto can take a shot and recover if he gets tagged.
 

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In MMA, rematches tend to either happen because someone tipped over the apple cart and promoter wants to correct it (St. Pierre-Serra 2, or now Penn-Edgar 2)
This is way off. GSP beat Hughes and Koscheck before getting a rematch and was TKOd in the first fight against Serra. BJ lost a controversial decision and is getting a straight rematch as a result.
 

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I stopped reading when I saw the bold. What the hell was that?! Really? Cardio?!

Honestly, I think Shogun will show up with better cardio than Machida to try to bum rush him if it hits round 4.
 
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