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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Watching UFC 117, it was pretty sad to see "Boxing Vs MMA."

First, James "supposedly" has trained MMA for 9 months so it won't be a pure boxing match. There is not ONE person in the octagon that uses one combat sport anymore. They USED to do that in MMA infancy. However, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate et. al, have been hybridized to EVOLVE with this ever evolving sport. The sport of MMA is still evolving. In a few decades, every fighter will be training MMA from a very early age. They will train X amount of wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, etc combined with their natural athletic and genetic gifts that will determine the best mixed martial artist.

There is no "pure" combat sport in MMA today. Even bjj used in mma today has been hybridized. James Toney would be an absolute idiot (insert "he's already an idiot") if he DIDNT try to "stuff a takedown." TDD is part of MMA and I am sure he may try.

The real question is "Can you take a pure boxer and train him in MMA to be an effective fighter?" The short answer is yes. We can't compare old boxer vs grappler because there has never been a true, peaked, high level boxer that has trained MMA for a long period of time.

With that said, Karate has shown to be a decent base, BJJ has shown to be awesome as has wrestling. Well, more and more MMA fighters are putting great emphasis on boxing and Junior dos Santos really showed GOOD (not great) boxing against Big Country. He stood at an angle that is easier for takedowns, leaned with his shoulder; which resulted in very easy counter uppercuts.

Unfortunately Toney is not the guy (41 and stubborn) to answer my question but I will be tuning into the fight anyway because I actually think he has a better than 20% chance of winning this fight. And no..it won't solve anything about boxing vs mma....because this is an MMA fight against a boxer that just trained MMA and is using boxing as a base.
 

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good post.

I think its pretty obvious why randy's the favorite to win. He's well rounded and toney is well...not well rounded.

That being said I hope toney wins and KO's randy :)
 

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The answer is no because BJJ and wrestling are by far the most useful martial arts in MMA and a pure boxer has no knowledge of those. "Well cant he just learn them?" No, he can't. Learning to wrestle or play BJJ at a HIGH level takes many many years to accomplish. "Well what about the high level boxing that the boxer has?" Well, a lot of boxing techniques are futile when you throw takedowns and kicks into the mix.
James Toney couldnt even beat Couture standing IMO because he relies on the Philly Cross AKA shoulder roll technique on defense which, for those of you in the know, leaves you completely exposed to leg kicks and take downs. Couture could beat Toney with leg kicks and dirty boxing in the clinch if he wanted to without even needing to take Toney down to the ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The answer is no because BJJ and wrestling are by far the most useful martial arts in MMA and a pure boxer has no knowledge of those. "Well cant he just learn them?" No, he can't. Learning to wrestle or play BJJ at a HIGH level takes many many years to accomplish. "Well what about the high level boxing that the boxer has?" Well, a lot of boxing techniques are futile when you throw takedowns and kicks into the mix.
James Toney couldnt even beat Couture standing IMO because he relies on the Philly Cross AKA shoulder roll technique on defense which, for those of you in the know, leaves you completely exposed to leg kicks and take downs. Couture could beat Toney with leg kicks and dirty boxing in the clinch if he wanted to without even needing to take Toney down to the ground.
Not one fighter I train with would agree with you. Did you watch Junior Dos Santos fight against big country? He had a shoudler roll and was not squared up with the opponent. Fighters ARE learning how to use a boxing stance to not only box, but stuff takedowns etc. The new trend is to NOT square up. Wrestling is a great base...no doubt. But people make the assumption that a wrestler would just "take it to the ground." It is a bit intimidating to want to take down an awesome puncher. People seem to forget that punchers that are very fast and powerful are highly rewarding with little risk. Kicks are higher in power but much higher risk. Low kicks are good but even those are being used less. There is no opinion in the statement that more and more fighters are choosing to keep standup 90% punching only. Even pure kickboxing matches are often completely dependent on good boxing (good by kickboxing standards).

Boxing is just, if not deeper than wrestling and is proving to be a force in the UFC. Get a young lion like Berto, Cintron or David Haye and you can have some intriguing match ups. You can learn to stuff high level grappling in a few years.

This really isn't opinion; rather current myths surrounding the myth that boxing wouldnt be an effective base. Almost every fight I am watching are having MMA fighters use much increased boxing to win (jab, roll, slip uppercuts, etc). Plus with how deep and hard it is to break into the top of boxing...you would get people that have superhuman reflexes, power and fighting IQ which would make them likely pick up other aspects of MMA faster than say a Rich Franklin.
 

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Yeah, it is not boxing vs MMA

If one is a really good boxer (a pure boxer) at the top of one's game (champion or contender), then there really is no point in training in anything other than boxing. One wouldn't abandon one's meal ticket and, for all intensive purposes, start at the bottom in an attempt to become competent in MMA. The UFC can't (won't) pay any champion boxer what they can make in the ring (al least not yet and not in the near/foreseeable future). When they can pay as much as a champion boxer makes, then boxing will probably be irrelevant by that point and the majority of fighters will train in MMA and no one will care if a boxer tries to compete.

So really, if a top level boxer fights in the UFC now, then it would it be just MMA vs Boxing. Fact is though that no top level boxer is going to put his career on hold to train in MMA, just doesn't make sense as there would more than likely be no money in it and the odds of them losing would be very high. The only scenario I can see is someone doing it for a challenge or are so blindly confident in their boxing that they don't feel as though they could be beaten by someone in MMA. So far all that elite boxers do is talk down to MMA.

Toney is not on the top of his game (he is currently ranked 52 in the world) and must need the money. He is 41 and too old to make a dent in the sport. Any of the top HW draws make too much money, so there would be no motivation for them. Toney will not be entering purely as a boxer and even if he was it would be irrelevant as he is well past his best before date, so the debate of boxer vs MMA is moot.

Perhaps, someday, if boxing truly starts to die, then some organization like the UFC can offer the HW champ enough to fight in the UFC. Until then, a top flight boxer, in his prime (or even close to it), will give MMA a pass and all we will see is fighters who started in boxing and are now cross training.
 

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i would think the only thing toney would learn about mma is how to always sprawl so he never gets taken down and he can ko randy.
 

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This really isn't opinion; rather current myths surrounding the myth that boxing wouldnt be an effective base. Almost every fight I am watching are having MMA fighters use much increased boxing to win (jab, roll, slip uppercuts, etc).
Really, almost every fight you are watching has MMA fighters use much increased boxing to win? Name some names please, because unless my eyes fool me im pretty sure WRESTLING is being used more and more to win. Lets break it down shall we?

Lightweight division: The champion is Frankie Edgar, a former college WRESTLER who undoubtedly relies on his wrestling as a base. Who is the only person to defeat him? Oh yeah, GRAY MAYNARD, another wrestler!

Welterweights: Dont even get me started here. The top 4 guys are all wrestlers plain and simple: GSP, Kos, Fitch, and Jake Shields. Next...

Middleweights: Who just embarassed and beat up Anderson Silva? Chael Sonnen, an amazing WRESTLER. Who else has been elite? Dan Henderson, an olympic WRESTLER, whose only recent loss is to Jake Shields, another WRESTLER.

Light Heavyweights: Rashad Evans has used his wrestling to earn a title shot in the division, and Jon Jones the college WRESTLER is the fastest rising star in the UFC.

Heavyweights: The champion Brock Lesnar came in and successfully defeated olypmic wrestler Randy Couture by using the only martial art he has extensive experience with: WRESTLING. And who has the title shot against him? Oh yeah, Cain Velasquez, another great WRESTLER.

Even the few top guys who dont have a wrestling base certainly do not have a boxing base. Machida uses his karate, while Anderson and Shogun rely on kicks and a Muay Thai style.

So please tell me how boxing is taking over in any way? Go ahead and try to shoulder roll me in a fight and i will either kick the crap out of you or take you down, period. The shoulder roll is an ineffective technique in an MMA fight. Can you really imagine Floyd Mayweather doing what he does defensively in the Octagon?! Oh, my...
 

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KO artist
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Do not agree with OP. While everyone in MMA trains overall "MMA", they only stand out at the top because of their specialization in a particular art. Sonnen and Lesnar ARE wrestlers, Anderson IS a MT fighter, Machida is a Karate fighter and so on.

The fact that Toney takes a crash course in MMA does not neutralize his decades of boxing experience and make this a vanilla "MMA fighter vs MMA fighter" match-up, it's very much a top level if slightly over the hill boxer going up against a top level if slightly over the hill wrestler.
 

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good post.

I think its pretty obvious why randy's the favorite to win. He's well rounded and toney is well...not well rounded.

That being said I hope toney wins and KO's randy :)


you can say that again :confused05:
 

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DAMMIT !!! you beat me to it. oh well ill shower some repp on you
Roy Nelson has him beat. He's obviously suffered a lot of head trauma - 800 or so rounds of competitive boxing will do that you. I wonder if Strikeforce turned him down before he gets to co-headline a UFC main event.

Seemingly, the majority of this board is actually looking forward to the match over BJ Penn fighting for the LW championship.
 

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Is this the official trailer?:
In that case I think it's safe to say FAIL. They didn't even say "boxing vs MMA" but "boxing vs the UFC".:laugh:

Obviously it isn't boxing vs MMA, it's an MMA fight between a one dimensional and a more well rounded fighter. I don't think it would be wrong if they let Toney say that line in the trailer, because they usually let the fighters express their opinions no matter how incorrect they might be. But they shouldn't have the LaFontaine-esque background voice say it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Really, almost every fight you are watching has MMA fighters use much increased boxing to win? Name some names please, because unless my eyes fool me im pretty sure WRESTLING is being used more and more to win. Lets break it down shall we?

Lightweight division: The champion is Frankie Edgar, a former college WRESTLER who undoubtedly relies on his wrestling as a base. Who is the only person to defeat him? Oh yeah, GRAY MAYNARD, another wrestler!

Welterweights: Dont even get me started here. The top 4 guys are all wrestlers plain and simple: GSP, Kos, Fitch, and Jake Shields. Next...

Middleweights: Who just embarassed and beat up Anderson Silva? Chael Sonnen, an amazing WRESTLER. Who else has been elite? Dan Henderson, an olympic WRESTLER, whose only recent loss is to Jake Shields, another WRESTLER.

Light Heavyweights: Rashad Evans has used his wrestling to earn a title shot in the division, and Jon Jones the college WRESTLER is the fastest rising star in the UFC.

Heavyweights: The champion Brock Lesnar came in and successfully defeated olypmic wrestler Randy Couture by using the only martial art he has extensive experience with: WRESTLING. And who has the title shot against him? Oh yeah, Cain Velasquez, another great WRESTLER.

Even the few top guys who dont have a wrestling base certainly do not have a boxing base. Machida uses his karate, while Anderson and Shogun rely on kicks and a Muay Thai style.

So please tell me how boxing is taking over in any way? Go ahead and try to shoulder roll me in a fight and i will either kick the crap out of you or take you down, period. The shoulder roll is an ineffective technique in an MMA fight. Can you really imagine Floyd Mayweather doing what he does defensively in the Octagon?! Oh, my...
Listen, I don't doubt that wrestling is currently the best base in MMA currently. But some of your points are easily countered. You mention Chael who recently "Embarrassed" Silva. Well I don't view it that way because Silva won. But that would be like me saying, "Carwin embarrassed brock by boxing." Well..not really brock won.

But boxing is making much more of a statement in MMA and you can see it in the trainers they are bringing in and the gyms that they will camp at for a bit when they go to Wild Card Gym in Vegas. Kenny florian and BJ Penn are using much more effective boxing. Same with Kos. Machida isn't a great wrestler but he uses his discipline combined with effective footwork so that wrestlers have a very hard time even getting close enough to shoot and takedown.

A boxer (Toney in his current form isnt the best example) can use effective footwork to neutralize the distance needed to shoot and take down. Boxing IS a big part of MMA now; much moreso than in years past.

In twenty years, this is all moot. There won't be the Lesnar's, Evan's and hughes of the world that rely on one base and train other aspects of MMA; hence my original post. It will be training a specific "formula" of MMA styles that prove to be most effective. In some ways, this has already happened and is evident by the end of the Hughes era.

But in it's current form, it will not be that surprising to see a guy like Toney get an upset win over Randy. Just because randy, as some quote, "Randy will push him to the cage and dirty box him" doesn't mean Toney will just be looking to hold and wait for a ref to break away. Toney will throw combinations of punches that could knock randy out cold in the clinch. Boxing actually has a pretty sick clinch game to where people get pretty rocked and they tie up with the big gloves so the ref has to break them apart.

You sound like a fighter too. But the fact that you presume that you can just leg kick to submission a world class athlete makes me think you are either a highly trained and accomplished professional or just internet trash talking. No one at either my MMA gyms or boxing gym in Detroit (Kronk) even would think we would last two minutes in either Randy or Toney's world. The shoulder roll was recently used in the JDS fight against Big Country. He didn't necessarily use the shoulder to block but the positioning was about right which allowed for some nasty uppercuts to come as he rolled away from the last punch thrown. The stance and the movement is very effective...even in MMA. I have seen Toney spar some of the upcoming fighters and the guy brutally beats the crap out of them. I mean...brutally. The guy comes in fat as hell....but still slicker than 90% out there.

And finally, I agree with the above poster's old Mir youtube video on his analysis of Toney. Spot on. Even out of shape, he rolls out of bed and beats 90% of boxers on any given day just because of his raw and fundamental talent. Like I have always said; this fight is more competitive than most think. Only a few more weeks until I find out.:thumb02:
 

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I also think this isn't Boxing vs MMA. This is MMA defending their sport, Randy defeating Toney woun't prove much to boxing world atleast not for me. (You need some younger boxer who shows passion and dedication to win.)

If Randy loses, all the hell will break lose.
 

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I also think this isn't Boxing vs MMA. This is MMA defending their sport, Randy defeating Toney woun't prove much to boxing world atleast not for me. (You need some younger boxer who shows passion and dedication to win.)

If Randy loses, all the hell will break lose.
I've stalked up on canned foods and water jugs. I'm actually in the camp that believes James Toney has a legitimate chance.

My only concern for Randy is how long it takes him to establish pace & find distance. It's in those early moments of a fight where both fighters are feeling each other out that Toney might have his chance. I'm "assuming" because Toney is a pro boxer, that he ought to acclimate to establishing pace & distance first on the feet.

Also, Couture is Greco Roman, so he doesn't have that shoot from afar, football tackle, free-style wrestling TD's. Randy's best TD's are from a body clinch, so we'll see. Randy certainly "can" shoot from a distance, but that's not his specialty, like it is with GSP, Sonnen, Kos, Fitch....

Granted, Randy actually did folkstyle wrestling back in his HS days and didn't make the transition to Greco until he was in the Army, but I don't recall having a GSP'esque, Sonnen'esque shot. His best wrestling is best utilized in the clinch range, which is a KO zone for Toney.

I think the outcome is going to be utter, polar opposites. Either Toney comes in and looks utterly pathetic, or he comes in and shocks the MMA world with a nasty, first round flash.
 

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Im tired of this boxing vs mma thing, or kickboxing vs boxing, all that BS. They are all good and exciting, it all depends on who is fighting. Its always exciting to watch 2 people fight and challenge each other , its human nature to like that, its our killer instinct. We are lucky there is mma and there is boxing, this is all exciting to me and I hope people stop talking sh#t because no style reigns supreme. Bruce Lee said it all man 1. "Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system."

2."Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth. "

3. "When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style. "
 
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