Mixed Martial Arts Forum banner

What do you think of the tito vs ken stoppage?

  • Good Call

    Votes: 36 63.2%
  • Bad Call

    Votes: 21 36.8%
1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,961 Posts
I Think He Should Have Let Tito Throw One Or Two More Elbows B4 He Stopped It..but I Can See Why He Stopped It
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
I understand the importance of protecting a fighter but a professional referee must take into account the circumstances inside the ring as well as outside the ring. I would never second guess a referree who is right there listening and watching mere feet away. Especially when I was watching a 57" big screen with only the poorly chosen angles called by the director in the truck. However, when taking the totality of the situation, I wish Dean would have waited a few more seconds. While Tito's first two elbows were about as devastating as any I've seen, the third, fourth and fifth elbows were more glancing blows with Shamrock's head turned. Again only the first two were totally flush. And the fact that Shamrock sprung to his feet in protest instantaniously demonstrated clearly that he was not seriously hurt and was aware of his surroundings.
So for those like myself who felt the stoppage was premature the question then becomes, well how many more elbows would have been sufficient for a proper stoppage? I've been watching fights for four decades and it just "felt" premature. If Dean had waiting just another second or two I think everyone would have had a clear cut definitive answer as to whether Shamrock was totally helpless or could have somehow avoided further damage. I feel Ortiz would still have won decisively but the decisiveness of his victory was taken from him.
Going back to my original point about "the circumstances inside the ring as well as outside the ring" I feel Dean had to understand that this was a very important fight for both men, a defining fight, more so for the older Shamrock then the younger Ortiz. This was probably the last time Shamrock could go through that type of training camp and emerge injury free and still pretty much at the top of his game. Shamrock is a true legend and has helped pioneer the sport, he deserved every possible consideration in his last "important" fight. Simply stated, Shamrock was not give enough benefit of the doubt. For two up and comers, I would not have had a problem with this sort of stoppage, for someone of Shamrock's stature, the referee should have been aware of the nuiance of this matchup and the consequences. When two greats like Ali and Frasier were in the ring a ref like Arthur Mercante would surely have both fighters best interest as the paramount concern while simultainiously acknowledging their stature and the elevated responsibility of not short changing their respective efforts.
UFC 61's stoppage is definately an argueable point but I would just like to cast one vote for: too early.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,957 Posts
Tito said before the fight he wants to be the first person to SERIOUSLY injure someone and put them in the hospital for a long time...in UFC history.....had the fight not been stopped, he would have done just that.......im not sure why theres so much controversy

Technical Knockout: stoppage of the fight by the referee if it's determined a fighter cannot "intelligently defend" himself or by ringside doctor due to injury.

ken in NO WAY was defending himself, let alone intelligently.....i wanted him to win, so in a way im disappointed at the outcome, but I am not upset they stopped it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Watching it live through UFC on demand..it looked like Ken should have definitely went for that arm bar attempt, but I can understand that he probably realized what risks that would have left him vulnerable to. And about the stoppage...I think Ken Shamrock could have taken several more elbows before being in any danger. He may have went limp from the first strike, but Ken was still not rocked. Ken's guard is dangerous, but Tito is a ground-and-pound expert and utilized that that in the first fight back in vendetta, and he used it again with a nice body slam in the beginning of the first-and-final round. Ken is definitely seasoned but is also willing to work his ass off. I'd like to see #3..but I still think Tito will whoop his ass again if that ever happens. by the way. what do you guys think was up with ken's smile during glove-tap. even though those two would never tap gloves for the end of the world. And Ken was throwing some wild bombs as soon as he came out...and when he was defending the take-down...he was defending it for his life..you could tell by the look on his face. if chuck gets past bobalu and wanderlei...tito has a good chance for a title shot. looks like chuck's fightcard is getting filled up pretty quickly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
I have to agree with DAT About 5 more seconds was what was really needed to tell what was going on.. Ken looked fine to me a red mark on the face.. thats nothing.. granted I have seen Ken in better shape.. but he came out swining great take down by Tito.. I stillthink he is a punk.. BUt I do not think either fighter should be happy with this out come...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,989 Posts
After all the disputing is over, and the smoke clears....people will still argue back and fourth on whether Ken was really that badly hurt, or if Herb Dean stepped in too quickly. I mean, Ken was laying there, with his head propped up against the cage, and Tito dropped 2 REAL VICIOUS elbows, and 3 lackluster elbows. Ken didn't seem all that banged up once he jumped up - but that's just that fighter's mentality (ex: Tim Sylvia post-fight UFC 48), so who knows man. All I know is this, by the way Tito was talking post-fight, I think we can expect Dana White to make Ortiz/Shamrock III a big deal sometime down the road. You know...Shamrock can play the "I wasn't even close to being hurt - none of Ortiz's shots can phase me blah, blah, blah" card and Tito can play the "I smashed his face in that quickly, but Herb stepped in and saved Ken's ass - but if he wants to go again...I'll just beat his old ass down some more..." card. UFC will market that shyt all over the place. You know it would go down like that too.

I for one am sick of these two already, and don't really want to see another fight. Just my two cents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
The Don said:
I have to agree with DAT About 5 more seconds was what was really needed to tell what was going on.. Ken looked fine to me a red mark on the face.. thats nothing.. granted I have seen Ken in better shape.. but he came out swining great take down by Tito.. I stillthink he is a punk.. BUt I do not think either fighter should be happy with this out come...
... and the rematch in November will keep Tito busy while waiting for Chuck to become available again.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
2,161 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I’ve gotten my bell rung before, and it takes a few seconds to recover, some people it takes months depending on the blow. I’m sure Ken didn’t even realize how many times he was hit after he got rocked.
I would have loved to see Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock go one more round and Tito still winning, but you know what, live to fight another day Ken.
Ken will be back, maybe he should retire, maybe he shouldn’t, no one knows at this stage what’s right for him but him. But Ken is in great shape and I think there’s more in him. I hope for him this isn’t going to be a streak of defeats throughout the rest of his UFC career, that would be horrible and tarnish his otherwise amazing accomplishments.
During that match we didn’t get to see where Tito really is at with his game. Does he have enough for chuck, i hope so. Id like to see him demolish chuck as well.


Either way, its done. A win is a win at the end of the day and Tito is happy to take it :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,957 Posts
Tito has been on a tear....beating his last 4 oppopnents I beleive....he is in the #1 contender after Babalu, and that sucks for him becuause hes probably going to have to wait til about january or feb. to get his much deserved title shot........better feed him a can or 2 in the process to keep him going
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Tito wants Chuck next though and Dana being Dana has gone and booked him up so we are going to have to wait for that one.

So why not - one last dance, Tito said he'd go onto the November card and finish it once and for all, after that Chuck should be available for maybe Jan/Feb time, sounds ok to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Kameleon said:
There were 4 or 5 unanswered elbows to Ken's face. That was a good call to stop the fight.
There were 7 unanswered elbows. I agree. Good call.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
teampunishment.50web said:
Tito wants Chuck next though and Dana being Dana has gone and booked him up so we are going to have to wait for that one.
There's no reason for Dana to book Tito and Chuck. Tito would be better going up to heavyweight to take on Sylvia. He could take down Tim easily and apply the gnp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
What Happend To The Camero Presentation !

Does Anyone Know What Happened To The Cameros ? I Wanted To See Shamrock Try To Sock Tito When He Got Into The Black One ! Anyone Know If The Exchange Took Place ? And Also ...if Shamrock Dosent Want The Yellow One ... Ill Take It !
 

·
LEGEND
Joined
·
1,684 Posts
There is no way we will see Tito vs. Shamrock again

Dana White said it best when he said ( and I'm paraphrasing here ) " You have to understand that when the Referee gets in the ring, he's got 2 lives on his hands, even if I don't agree with a call I would never question the judgement of the referee's." I concurr %100 . However the customer is always right and when there are over 12000 people screaming " Bull S*** " after what looks like a bad call, then it was a bad call. Plain and simple. There is absolutly no way we will see Tito vs. Shamrock again. The era of legends vs. currents is dead. I hated the call, even though it was warrented only in its technicality and it was the final nail in the coffin for the pioneers. I believe Dana sees the writing on the wall and is eager to usher in the new era of UFC vs. Pride and other MMA associations. To sum it all up, my vote for that call is " Bull S***!"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Fans are not experts on a fighter's condition in the Octagon! The BS chants were because everyone wanted to see more! Ken could have gotten seriously hurt! It may have lasted a few seconds longer,but Ken didn't look like he wanted to defend any of it! I would have preferred Ken leaving on a stretcher,but unfortunately he forgot to defend himself and Herb Dean stopped it! It was good by the book stoppage!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
i was really dissapointed to see that the match was short as it was i did spend $39.95 + tax to watch this fight live. however i do agree with the call. i wish it was atleast 3 minutes into the match before the elbows where thrown.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top