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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Three-division world boxing champ James “Lights Out” Toney lose to UFC legend Randy “The Natural” Couture? Not a chance, Toney said today on a media teleconference. ”I’m not even thinking about losing,” said Toney. “I’m the best fighter Randy has ever fought. I’m not worried about what Randy can do. I’m winning, hands down – I’m knocking him out.”

On August 28, live from the TD Garden in Boston, on PPV, Toney and Couture will co-headline UFC 118. The main event features a rematch between B.J. Penn and Frankie Edgar for the UFC lightweight title.

“Sure, James poses a different style, has a unique boxing style,” said Couture. “I’ve had to adjust my tactics and training but the fight depends on James. It’s mixed martial arts, certainly, not boxing. Whatever skill set James has tried to learn and bring into this fight, I’ll counter by pure MMA. It’ll be interesting.”

Stay tuned for a full report.
http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/toney-predicts-ko-over-couture-56244
 

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I'm concerned that it could actually happen. James Toney doesn't need to make contact more then a couple times to stamp a KO on Randy's head. I'm more worried then most.
 

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I'm more worried then most.
I'm with you on that. I mean, no doubt, Randy's the favorite but he needs to take this fight into his realm right from the get-go; I could see Toney dropping Couture with a one-two - how many times did Nog drop Couture again??
 

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I'm concerned that it could actually happen. James Toney doesn't need to make contact more then a couple times to stamp a KO on Randy's head. I'm more worried then most.
James Toney's last first round KO was over 20 years ago. Past the first 10 seconds of the first round, I don't give Toney much hope.
 

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I'm with you on that. I mean, no doubt, Randy's the favorite but he needs to take this fight into his realm right from the get-go; I could see Toney dropping Couture with a one-two - how many times did Nog drop Couture again??
I'll third that - I would not be surprised at all if Toney ko'ed Randy. My heart is with Randy, and I think he will win, but I'll take 5:1 odds on Toney with a punchers chance.
I can't see this fight getting past the first round though:
either Toney catches Randy or he doesn't, and if Randy gets the clinch, he'll take Toney down like a rag doll and GNP him easily.
 

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I'm concerned that it could actually happen. James Toney doesn't need to make contact more then a couple times to stamp a KO on Randy's head. I'm more worried then most.
Cuz you are smart. I have been saying this the whole time. Greco Roman style is not predicated upon a far out shoot...it is clinched based. It will NOT be easy to close the distance on Toney's style. Sure, Couture should be the favourite but Toney is vastly under-rated. He is no "family picnic Kimbo" fighter. He was/somewhat is a world class boxer that has the will to win amongst the other things that true champions have beyond the sport's skill set. Randy has the same qualities and that is why this will be a good match. If Toney loses, he will not go out without a good fight. He is so strong, super slick and has a winner's mentality.
 

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Also, Randy has a habbit of stalling and getting the fight stood up, or broken up against the cage. All those seperations can mean one landed shot from Toney.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)

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It is an interesting point, but clinches are very common in boxing and Toney is definitely not clinch proof. Here he is against the clinch master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFoe6v1OIU&feature=related

P.S. One can also notice from this how little power Toney really has.
Well that type of clinch makes it pointless to counter (when Ruiz goes over the head). I never try to box that. But you can actually see Ruiz try to grab Toney a few times and he counters by shoulder rolling through the punch. Toney is actually a great GREAT inside fighter. That is the way he made "moderate" success at HW. He is very slick and, in his prime, almost as defensively sound as Floyd Mayweather Jr.

People assume clinching in boxing always results in gridlock with ref break up. But good inside fighters do some pretty intricate things inside the clinch that rock the other fighter to where they physically lock up for a ref break. There is NO doubt in my mind that Toney will outclinch or "dirty box" Couture.

MMA is still very much Base related. You do see kickboxers, wrestlers and BJJ practitioners have moderate success with very little training in other styles. Wrestling is the best but I actually think Boxing is better than Kickboxing. People make the false assumption that "PUNCH PLUS KICK> PUNCH ONLY." Kickboxing is easier to break into and become good at. Boxing is much tougher to climb to the top because of the following factors:
1. Most important: Money. Greater money equals more competitors trying to get the big bucks
2. Because of the money it will attract a higher level of athlete.
3. There are many more competitions and levels of boxing from golden gloves, national golden gloves, diamond gloves, Olympics, Amateurs, Professional, etc.
4. Punch and kick doesn't equate to greater "depth." Because boxers rely on punches, (which actually many kickboxers mostly win on) you will see more footwork, feinting, head movement, etc. Kicks are high risk, high reward and punching is lower risk moderate reward.

Almost every fight on the street or even in MMA starts with throwing punches; not kicks and not shooting. Watch a few episodes of TUF to validate that claim. Punching is the most effective and risk/reward value to end a fight.

I am not saying Toney will win. But after years of boxing and wrestling and supporting the UFC from it's first event; I just have great knowledge of the sports. Physically I know boxing better, but I love ALL combat sports and follow them closely.

Again...this COULD be a good fight and I am actually going to put money on Toney to win as I expect Couture to be HEAVILY favoured in Vegas and the odds and "pot size" is enough for me to give, in what my opinion is, Toney the "moderate" underdog the shot.
 

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...Of course if Toney connects flush Randy can be KO'd. Randy is well aware of that and he won't square up with him. Toney only has a puncher's chance. That really sums it all up. All he knows is how to throw his hands. There are so many aspects of an MMA fight that Toney is unaware of. I think Couture will mix it up so much, Toney won't be able to deal with it or know what's coming next. James has never took some hard knees, ate some leg/bodykicks or has been roughed up against a fence in a Couture level clinch. Randy is such a crafty legend. Is 9 months enough time to deal with Couture's wrestling? Very, unlikely. One thing is for sure-the stakes are very high being called "Boxing vs. MMA". Randy will push a pressure pace that will make Toney crumble like a month old cookie...
 

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I'm concerned that it could actually happen. James Toney doesn't need to make contact more then a couple times to stamp a KO on Randy's head. I'm more worried then most.
Why are you worried that something hilarious and awesome would happen?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well that type of clinch makes it pointless to counter (when Ruiz goes over the head). I never try to box that. But you can actually see Ruiz try to grab Toney a few times and he counters by shoulder rolling through the punch. Toney is actually a great GREAT inside fighter. That is the way he made "moderate" success at HW. He is very slick and, in his prime, almost as defensively sound as Floyd Mayweather Jr.

People assume clinching in boxing always results in gridlock with ref break up. But good inside fighters do some pretty intricate things inside the clinch that rock the other fighter to where they physically lock up for a ref break. There is NO doubt in my mind that Toney will outclinch or "dirty box" Couture.

MMA is still very much Base related. You do see kickboxers, wrestlers and BJJ practitioners have moderate success with very little training in other styles. Wrestling is the best but I actually think Boxing is better than Kickboxing. People make the false assumption that "PUNCH PLUS KICK> PUNCH ONLY." Kickboxing is easier to break into and become good at. Boxing is much tougher to climb to the top because of the following factors:
1. Most important: Money. Greater money equals more competitors trying to get the big bucks
2. Because of the money it will attract a higher level of athlete.
3. There are many more competitions and levels of boxing from golden gloves, national golden gloves, diamond gloves, Olympics, Amateurs, Professional, etc.
4. Punch and kick doesn't equate to greater "depth." Because boxers rely on punches, (which actually many kickboxers mostly win on) you will see more footwork, feinting, head movement, etc. Kicks are high risk, high reward and punching is lower risk moderate reward.

Almost every fight on the street or even in MMA starts with throwing punches; not kicks and not shooting. Watch a few episodes of TUF to validate that claim. Punching is the most effective and risk/reward value to end a fight.

I am not saying Toney will win. But after years of boxing and wrestling and supporting the UFC from it's first event; I just have great knowledge of the sports. Physically I know boxing better, but I love ALL combat sports and follow them closely.

Again...this COULD be a good fight and I am actually going to put money on Toney to win as I expect Couture to be HEAVILY favoured in Vegas and the odds and "pot size" is enough for me to give, in what my opinion is, Toney the "moderate" underdog the shot.
I understand what you are saying, but in regards to Toney, it only relates to boxing. Yes, clinches in "boxing" do not always result in stalemate, but at the same time your opponent is not actively trying to take you to the ground or kneeing you in the stomach. As you well know, boxing gloves are not fingerless and MMA gloves are, which will increase the effectiveness of the clinch for the wrestler and further reduce the chance/effectiveness of infighting. If Couture laces his finger behind Toney's head and knees him repeatedly, Toney's ability to fight on the inside will be negated as he will have to use his arms to defend his torso - if he has prepared for such an eventuality. Toney attempting at anytime to fight on the inside would really be pointless and will make him even more susceptible to being taken down. Randy is not going to take him to the fence and let Toney roll back and forth on the cage nor will he engage in infighting from the clinch. The whole point of this is having a greater range of tool to use, not matching the "one" that your opponent brings.

I have a video somewhere of Lennox training for Evander. A sparing partner of about Evander's size was brought in for Lennox to train with. The guy was an average boxer, but a black belt in Judo. At one point during the training session Lennox pissed him off. Not once, but many times this guy, with boxing gloves on, tossed the much bigger Lennox around the ring like a rag doll...and I mean tossed. All of this happened from the clinch and Lennox could do nothing about it.

My call is Toney is going be an embarrassment.
 

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My main question is can Toney unlearn the boxing shoulder roll. How many years in boxing doing that, compared to how many months training mma? If he does manage to drop Couture, will Toney know what to do? Will be know how to get into, and hold a position for finishing it if that happens? Ha I'd joking like to think if he drops couture, he's stand there waiting for Herb Dean or Dan Miragliotta to send him to a corner lol...
 

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I'm with you on that. I mean, no doubt, Randy's the favorite but he needs to take this fight into his realm right from the get-go; I could see Toney dropping Couture with a one-two - how many times did Nog drop Couture again??
You can’t possibly compare Toney to Big Nog, all Randy has to worry about with Toney are his fists. Big Nog posed a HUGE threat with his grappling, submissions, kicks, knees, etc.

NO comparison. Do you actually think Randy is stupid enough to get into a punching match with Toney? He could use leg kicks outside then circle and kick again (taking Toney’s legs out), he could push him up against the cage (like he always does) and grind Toney into hamburger, he no doubt will take him down and do whatever he wants. All Randy has to do is avoid his hands, that’s it.
 
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