[Ferdelance]

My boss at work raised a question last week that I thought about and decided to present here. It goes like this:some of the guys who work in the back are true MMA enthusiasts.They go to as many matches as they can, they bet on their favorites.The whole nine yards.
Last week during break, they were discussing a match that they had attended and my boss interrupted their discussion with a question that had me thinking.See, he is old enough to remember movies like the old Mr. Moto movies that Chuck Norris says inspired him,my boss is old enough to remember the Spencer Tracy movie Bad Day at Black Rock.My boss is old enough to remember the cult TV series The Avengers with Diana Rigg as the unbelievably hot Mrs. Emma Peel-Mrs. Peel would just hit an enemy spy once with a karate chop and it would be all over! her opponent would be decked!
All of those movies were like that!Spencer Tracy hit the villain once and he went down!
Slight little diminutive little Mr. Moto would hit hit his much much larger opponent once and the guy would go down.My boss was saying that that was what he was led to believe that the martial arts were about:knowledge of the human body and its vulnerable spots,that if you knew the right spot to hit the right way, that person was going down,no matter how big or strong they were. So my questions are:
1.How would you respond to my boss's question:Why isn't it like that in the MMA? He is saying, if these guys are true martial artists, how come it isn't like a Mr. Moto flick,say,and one guy just hits the other guy once, and it's all over?
2.More importantly:What is the Tao of the Knock-out? I feel like I should clairfy one point here: I am not a fighter. I have never been in a ring of any kind in my life, nor do I ever intend to. I am a musician/poet/artist/creative person. As I posted in the thread Which is better Muy Thai or Kung Fu, I have spent all of my adult life avoiding fights and situations that lead to fights.My interest in the martial arts stems from a series of incidents which have occurred in the local mall,one of which was this:Somebody I know went into a store with his girlfriend to buy a bottle of Chardonnay,which she happened to like a lot. Unfortunately,they unknowingly picked gang initiation night to do this.They walked into a hold-up in progress,whereupon the punks decided to add them to the night's fun.They hospitalized both of them, and they gang-raped the girl.Thus, I see that, no matter how one lives one's life, the possibility exists that you will find yourself in a position where you have to fight to protect the people you cherish. I am thinking that in a situation such as the one that i have just described, you can't go ten rounds with anybody. You have to do it like Spencer Tracy or Mr. Moto or Mrts. Peel or whomever- you've got one shot at your opponent and you'd better make it good!
Agree? or disagree?
And what is the Tao of the Knock-out? What are the parameters of this equation?
What does determine whether somebody gets knocked-out or not? And why aren't there more out and out knock-outs in the MMA if all of these guys are martial artists?Sincerely,Ferdelance

 

[IronMan]

I don't know exactly what your question is, but I think I know what you're talking about.

It really depends on the initial strike. If you are using the big right hand it's about get the full weight of your legs behind the blow and getting all of the power you can out of it.

If you're throwing that big kick or the knee then it's about getting some serious power from the ground and driving it into your oponents skull.

The word that you're using "Tao" (Chinese "way") then the real way of the knock out is using the legs. The legs are the largest and strongest muscles that we use in fighting, which is why they are heavily used in BJJ. If you get your legs behind the strike then you're putting alot more power into the strike.

 

[Yeti]

1)Tell your boss it isn't like that because that is a movie. Tell it's the same reason all our wars aren't like John Wayne movies.
2)IronMan is correct. Respect.

If you're looking for the one hitter quitter bud there's no easy fix. That's why people carry guns and knives.

 

[Deadly Poet]

first and foremost those where fictional events...it wasnt real...

second if u happened to be in a fight (a real fight not an mma match) then ur best shots are eyes, throat, groin, knees...u know everything thats illegal in MMA cause its too dangerous should be ur main focus....there are ways to end fights quick its not what they had in movies with Mr Moto but it doesnt mean that what u see in an MMA match is the best choice in a real fight where there are no rules and no specific targets....

 

[Onganju]

Realistically, the Art of the KO usually breaks down to a few things:

1) Power and Speed
2) Accuracy
3) Timing

Of those three things, Power and Speed can be trained exclusively. This is simply done by routinely and repetitively punching, kicking, etc. a suitable target. However, this is also an aspect that will plateau in development very quickly without knowledgeable instruction. Without instruction to refine technique, your "sunday punch" may be something that looks powerful, but may lack anything meaningful in terms of fighting application.

Accuracy and Timing are probably the two most important factors aside from pure Force that define a clean Knock Out shot. Accuracy can be trained at very minimal level exclusively. Timing can not be trained at all on an exclusive level. The reason why the two are so important can simply be explained like this:

1) You can have the fastest and strongest attacks in the world, but if you miss it doesn't matter.
2) You can have the fastest and strongest attacks in the world, but if you attack at the wrong moment where it is easy to defend against (too soon/telegraphed), or where it has no chance of hitting (too late late, opponent is already defending) it doesn't matter either.

Accuracy and Timing can only be trained in live conditions with a partner through constant drilling and sparring. No opponent can be expected to stand in front of you as a static target or jump in front of your attacks abandon of any concern about you counter attacking. I know of no active competitor in MMA that prescribes to the "Black Ninja" style of combat either. In light of that, drilling with actual combat situations in mind and sparring to create as close to a combat situation as possible are the only known ways of tempering one's accuracy or sense of timing.

In light of that, as others have said previously, the aforementioned Mr. Moto is a fictional character. Live fights between trained combatants do not resemble the "Big Screen Ballet" that many movies put forth on display. Hell, I can probably contend that the guys in "West Side Story" probably have it just as hard (if not harder) than any Movie artial Artist.

 

[Slamnbam88]

chin jaw button....nerve endings their rattle your brain and you go to sleep

have to hit them hard enough though

and go for the throat if it comes down to it...if you kill the head the body will die

 

[FromHereOn]

Rock the head man. Look at the knockout blows in pride slo-mos (CC's left high kick). The head gets jarred and the neck goes loose. Once the head moves fast enough back and forth, the reciever get's KTFO. Legs are big and have the most weight. Remember your inertia rule with speed squared*mass. More inertia, more KO potential.

 

[ShootBoxer]

.My boss was saying that that was what he was led to believe that the martial arts were about:knowledge of the human body and its vulnerable spots,that if you knew the right spot to hit the right way, that person was going down,no matter how big or strong they were.

Read up on and study old school fighters like Archie Moore and Benny Leonard who where KO artist, by design. They had the knowledge you are asking about. They knew exactly WHEN and WHERE and HOW to hit a man to effectively hurt and eventually KO them.

 

[Atreides69]

rear chokes are a great knockout technique, especially if the guy hasn't got game....it's relatively easy to apply if you've trained it and won't do permanent damage

I put oit on a bigger guy (about 250 lbs) and it was simple.... he threw a haymaker, I slipped in under it, got behind him and 10 secs later he was sleeping

 

[Atreides69]

rear chokes are a great knockout technique, especially if the guy hasn't got game....it's relatively easy to apply if you've trained it and won't do permanent damage

I put it on a bigger guy (about 250 lbs) and it was simple.... he threw a haymaker, I slipped in under it, got behind him and 10 secs later he was sleeping

 

[AdRath]

rear chokes are a great knockout technique, especially if the guy hasn't got game....it's relatively easy to apply if you've trained it and won't do permanent damage

I put it on a bigger guy (about 250 lbs) and it was simple.... he threw a haymaker, I slipped in under it, got behind him and 10 secs later he was sleeping

Although it worked for you I wouldn't recomend trying it as any fighter with minimal skill could evade someone taking their back standing up and you will more likely take massive damage trying for it if that is your focus. If it presents itself sure for every wild haymaker there is a good combo puncher out there that will catch you trying to take the back. Besides in a street fight it isn't hard to reach down and grab the balls of the person who has your back or choke applied. sure it took 10sec but that could be the last time you have working balls. that is my 2 cents

 

[Atreides69]

Hey AdRath,

I see your 2 cents and raise you 2!

I hear what you say, but I don't agree fully. You're right in saying you shouldn't be too focused on specific moves or techniques as such, but taking someone's back who hasn't got game is pretty simple, especially if it goes to the ground. If you sink your hooks in, and trap one or both his arms, no way he's gonna go anywhere near your nuts and besides if the choke is properly applied, I can promise you he'll be too busy trying to stay concious to think about grabbing anything, the choke just works too quickly.

If it stays upright, and you've applied it properly, there is also no way he should be able to grab your crotch. I know things happen very fast iin a street situation, but that's why you spar - so get the choke applied and crank him back and down...stick your butt out, bending as low in your back as you can, and if he's really tryting to grab you (which 9 out of 10 won't, they'll be too busy looking at the pretty flashing lights and tweety birds) you start banging knees into his coccyx, his buttocks or the back of his legs...that'll destroy his base and chances are he'll fall back ino you or just sag/collapse...then crank the choke again.

I'm not saying I'll always use these techniques, but they do work very well in a street situation...besides, I'd rather clinch or grapple with an unknown opponent than trade punches...one lucky shot lands and even the best fighter can get knocked out.

You can tell within the first shove or punch whether the guy knows his stuff or not, so sure, if the guys a total bum you can stand up with him and give him a boxing lesson, but why take the risk?'Lastly, the choke is a 'non-lethal' submission, you never know how badly you could hurt someone with knees, fists or elbows, and you don't wanna land up in trouble because some drunk asshole started a fight.

 

[AdRath]

Hey AdRath,

I see your 2 cents and raise you 2!

I hear what you say, but I don't agree fully. You're right in saying you shouldn't be too focused on specific moves or techniques as such, but taking someone's back who hasn't got game is pretty simple, especially if it goes to the ground. If you sink your hooks in, and trap one or both his arms, no way he's gonna go anywhere near your nuts and besides if the choke is properly applied, I can promise you he'll be too busy trying to stay concious to think about grabbing anything, the choke just works too quickly.

If it stays upright, and you've applied it properly, there is also no way he should be able to grab your crotch. I know things happen very fast iin a street situation, but that's why you spar - so get the choke applied and crank him back and down...stick your butt out, bending as low in your back as you can, and if he's really tryting to grab you (which 9 out of 10 won't, they'll be too busy looking at the pretty flashing lights and tweety birds) you start banging knees into his coccyx, his buttocks or the back of his legs...that'll destroy his base and chances are he'll fall back ino you or just sag/collapse...then crank the choke again.

I'm not saying I'll always use these techniques, but they do work very well in a street situation...besides, I'd rather clinch or grapple with an unknown opponent than trade punches...one lucky shot lands and even the best fighter can get knocked out.

You can tell within the first shove or punch whether the guy knows his stuff or not, so sure, if the guys a total bum you can stand up with him and give him a boxing lesson, but why take the risk?'Lastly, the choke is a 'non-lethal' submission, you never know how badly you could hurt someone with knees, fists or elbows, and you don't wanna land up in trouble because some drunk asshole started a fight.

Very true about the nut grab if you are of similar height. I kinda assumed with the 250lbs that the guy might have been much taller hence the nut grab comment. As far as street fighting goes I personally don't take it to the ground often because my standup is much much better but I have had a buddy get into a fight (I wasn't there to see it) but he took the guy to the ground and the guys friends started throwing boots into him and get got messed up bad. I guess every situation requires a different action depending on what is going on.
cheers dude

 

[Atreides69]

Yea that's one drawback to grappling..is one on one. If yhe's got mates and you dont the last place you wanna go is the ground!

I also prefer standup, when you got 2 or 3 guys wanting to play it starts to get interesting!

 

[pauly_j]

Its all well and good being able to put someone to sleep, but in the situation the guy described it would be impossible. Its all well and good in an octagon or when one guy is trying to mug you, but I've never ever seen a situation where there is just one guy without his friends. If you try get a guy in a choke when all his friends(ie. a gang) are there, you're going down. My advice is: poke the eyes, kick the nutz then grab something to smash him over the head with.

 

[Atreides69]

As i stated previously, you don't want to go to the ground or clinch in a 1-on-3 or 1-on-4 situation, that's just logical. Dunno where you've been or what you do, but I have seen and/or been involved in many confrontational incidents which are one on one, probably as many as when there were more than one guy involved, and each and every one of them was unique and required a unique approach (probably only 15, maybe 20% of the time is a physical attack required, by the way - unless you're a gung-ho, I-wanna-fight wannabe tough guy) This is why thinking fighters like Randy do so well, they're always adapting their game to the situation.

As for eyes and nuts - this whole "Only Because Of A Military Legal Loophole Can I Reveal The Terrifying 'Decide-Dominate-And-Destroy'
Shocking Street Fighting Secret Banned By Congress That Can Transform ANY MAN (Into A Walking, Breathing Weapon Of Mass Destruction." type bullshit is utter rubbish. Every single fight I've seen where a guy has tried to kick the nuts it turned real nasy becuase, you're just gonna really piss the guy off. Same with the eye gouge. They're not close to effective enough to stop someone dead, it just doesn't do enough damage, with a miniscule chance that you actually connect really hard. I took one in the nuts once and didn't even feel it until half an hour later, was just too pumped. Don't believe everything you see in the movies.....

 

[pauly_j]

But in a situation where your or someone you care abouts life is at stake, would you really be that bothered about how pissed the other guy gets at you trying to hurt him? Hell no. Fight as dirty as you can and don't listen to all these people saying use kicks to knock people out. Unless you are very well versed in kicking its the last thing you want to do. The last thing you want in a street fight is to lose your balance.

 

[AdRath]

I think you guys are argueing 2 different fight situations. Sure in a life threatening situation like a mugging something like that I'll grab the pen in my pocket and stab the guy with it but in a bar fight the moment you pick up a bottle and escalate the situation to assault with a weapon isn't good. The same people that attack are more than willing to see you in jail.

 

[pauly_j]

I'm onlt going on the situation that the guy gave an example of.....